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Post by SHAKALAKA on Mar 20, 2009 12:28:19 GMT -5
"Every Job should be a paying job."Let me help out in this disscussion, since it is misdirectly pointed at to me, the bad guy trying to get someone to do a web comic for free. We're not all in the same boat as professional artists that do the gig for a living. Many of us are trying to get to that point. On that road, you're obviously going to have to make sacrifices of your time and effort. Bingo. When you're jus trying to get to a point where people can see your work an ask about it/you, that's where you want to be at. Unless of course you make a mistake by believing you're at that stage in your art, when you are not. That's where something like a web comic comes in. And at 1 or 2 pages a week, the deadline in pretty doable.In terms of the webcomic- I think that it would be an interesting opportunity. I would do the work on the side, depending on deadlines and such. At the beginning stages, exposure and networking are critical. And that's what this is. A great chance to get your shit together so to speak. There are alot of great artist out there, especially on Deviantart. And they are all at different levels. Some jus need some guidance, while others know exactly where they are going. I myself am going to do page layouts to help the newbie out, so he/she can get their feet wet. At this point, anyone feeling naive or used can step out of the room. Now, if you're an established pro doing a job for free isn't volunteering, it's charity- or just being a nice guy. Now, to tell you the truth, the frontrunner for the gig is a pretty damn good colorist as well as all around artist. he has jobs lined up with Image as well as other gigs. Why does he want to do the web comic?? Because doing an all ages type gig is what he wants to get into, an he thought this would be a great place to start( whoda thought that huh, juggertha???) My biggest concern is his timetable, which is why the job is still open. But, we all have to start somewhere, and on occasion, that might mean doing a piece or two for free. Yes, we ALL need to start somewhere, but it doesn't necessarily mean a webcomic. Maybe character design will be your forte. But, if comics is what you want to do, then being able to tell a story with your art, doing decent backgrounds(like our Mr. Brooks)is a must. And above all, keep practicing.
Hope this clears up any misconceptions about my trying to land someone "naive" enough to take the job.
Izzy
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tyzue
hanger-on
Posts: 34
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Post by tyzue on Mar 20, 2009 14:25:56 GMT -5
Well, the difference is.. If YOU want to give away free work, that's fine, but people shouldn't demand or expect it out of you.
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Post by juggertha on Mar 20, 2009 19:02:59 GMT -5
SHAKALAKA: You know, it's funny. I never once brought up your name in this thread nor did I link to or mention your job posting. I did not state any of the opinions mentioned here in your job posting, and as soon as you got snippy in it, I bowed out quickly.
I wanted people to continue to look at your post for what it was - your post.
I brought the (general) discussion here because this seemed to be the area for it. NOT because of your post specifically, but because of many encounters I had with people requesting free art (note the title of this thread and the original post).
But for you to come in here and take a snitty swipe at me in your post... well... that smacks of making things personal. You could have came in here and been a professional, but you didn't. When I commented in your other thread, you could have handled that professionally too, but you didn't.
You ask people to work for you for free, and when someone doesn't toe the line, you lash out at them and put words in their mouth (anyone can go and read the job post to see where this happened).
I'll make this very clear for both you and seraph; I'm not a perfect guy, and I make plenty of mistakes. But if you're going to discuss something with me, do it with my own words and arguments - no need to make something up.
So, I'm going to ask you specifically SHAKALAKA, do you value the work the artists do?
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Post by SHAKALAKA on Mar 20, 2009 19:28:14 GMT -5
This is my response (and only one) to this. The reason I am even replying here is because , I 'll give you your props, this is where you went to attack my post. You have quotes that I said in my post,("beef up your portfolio") saying that I am disguising my need for free art by saying that "it will help the artist out" in the long run. Now, I said all I am going to on the matter( with seraph's help) in my last post. What you are doing here is stating your opinion on it, an that's cool too. Let's not make no mistake, there was no general discussion regarding the matter. You opened up this whole new post, hoping to get peeps to see wat you're saying, but. in the end, there's no right an wrong, only personal opinions. You have yours; I have mine. I'm done here, and that is the most professional way I know to handle this without being, what you said, "snippy."LOL
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Post by juggertha on Mar 20, 2009 19:42:01 GMT -5
This is my response (and only one) to this. The reason I am even replying here is because , 1. I 'll give you your props, this is where you went to attack my post. 2. You have quotes that I said in my post,("beef up your portfolio") saying that I am disguising my need for free art by saying that "it will help the artist out" in the long run. Now, I said all I am going to on the matter( with seraph's help) in my last post. What you are doing here is stating your opinion on it, an that's cool too. 3. Let's not make no mistake, there was no general discussion regarding the matter. 4. You opened up this whole new post, hoping to get peeps to see wat you're saying, but. in the end, there's no right an wrong, only personal opinions. You have yours; I have mine. I'm done here, and 5. that is the most professional way I know to handle this without being, what you said, "snippy."LOL ((numbers are mine)) 1. I did not want to derail your job advert, so I brought my thoughts here. That being said, your post was simply a reminder for how much I dislike those type of 'jobs'. As you can see, regardless of your advert, MANY people have encountered MANY of the same things. 2. Sorry mate, hate to break it to ya, but your quote is not that original. Please see point number 1. If I wanted to quote you, I'd use the quote function (like I am doing). 3. Actually, this is a general discussion on it. A number of people have weighed in on this topic (that is now two pages) discussing it. Some for, some against, some just passing by. That's what a discussion is all about. 4. Yes, I opened this post to get people to see what I am saying - isn't that why ALL people start threads? To share something? What's your point? 5. A little hint about being professional... you might want to take the emotion out of it. You see, when people type quickly they make a lot of mistakes... spelling and writing mistakes. And your post is full of them. That either means a) you cannot spell, b) you are not careful, or c) you typed with emotion. None of those bode well for being professional. And while I realize that #5 in my post can come off as a little snitty, consider it a fair response to all the swipes you've taken at me. You are right about one thing; we're all welcome to our opinion. My Original Post was me expressing mine. You've got no problem with that, right? edit: So, I'm going to ask you specifically SHAKALAKA, do you value the work the artists do?
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seraph
hanger-on
Working away...
Posts: 41
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Post by seraph on Mar 21, 2009 1:26:29 GMT -5
Okay...
I didn't mean to open a can of worms on this one. Or start any arguments or the like.
I mentioned webcomic work. Not Jugg. I brought it up merely as an example. Not to say we were discussing that opportunity in particular.
This is what I get for writing posts at 12am when I'm exhausted.
I wasn't clear on a few things in my last novel I posted here.
I think Jugg and I aren' exactly on the same page. I don't think professional artists should have to do work for free, nor should they -have- to feel inclined to. I was speaking more along the lines of artists who are starting out who might benefit from the experience of working with someone else, etc... and how, I personally, see starting out as a time where you have to make some sacrifices to get known out there- and that just might mean doing a few things for free.
I brought up new artists demanding massive cash off the bat with no proven skills more as an example, and not a rule. I feel those artists need some experience and time to solidify their talent before taking it a step up- and to get a more rounded experience it might mean working with likewise amateur writers which means: you might have to do some stuff for free. I wasn't trying to set up paper tigers (or Strawmen- never heard that phrase before now), just illustrate the point from a different perspective. Which, looking back, might not have been too clear.
Regardless, I tried closing with its up to each artist to decide what choices to make on this matter.
I do agree that many people just want free art without any regard for what it takes, etc. However, there are some sincere and good people out there to work with that one can network with even if it means doing a piece for free.
It's all a matter of choice on the artist's part.
That's really all I meant to say. I apologize if I lit a fire under anyone about all of this. Such was not my intent.
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Post by juggertha on Mar 21, 2009 1:51:49 GMT -5
It's all a matter of choice on the artist's part. Seems to be the sentiment no matter which side of the coin you are on in this. ;D Personally, I've done work for free. I've even done work for free when asked. But they better have a really good sales pitch (ie. A children's Hospital give away or something). if I get the sense that someone is trying to profit off of my work... then I'm all about making sure that a certain piece of that is mine.
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Post by SHAKALAKA on Mar 21, 2009 10:23:22 GMT -5
Hmmmm, do I value the work the artists' do?? You bet your ass I do, as I am an artist, an I do get payed for my services. But, I like many artists, have done all sorts of non-monetary gigs with another outcome in mind, hoping for the exposure to help a brother out. Some have panned out, some not. Now I work thru my studio, getting character design work(when I can, as this "recession" has made it hard to do nothing but commissions). My webcomic offer has also panned out in the sense that everyone that's enquired knows that it is a job that will be seen by many, while also getting their work published, as we plan on collecting the pages for the graphic novel itself. So, as strongly as you feel about what the webcomic is, I can assure you that it's no gimmick or way to use someone in a negative way. I don't see a dime of cash til there are sales on the GN as well. Oh, an my typing is a mixture of "speedtyping" as I sometimes have to multitask. I'll type "what" or I'll type "wat". It still gets the point across. Now, like I said b4, I was going to end this with that last post, until you asked a sincere question. But know you this : There was never any emotion involved, jus confusion on my part as to why you were making a mountain out of a molehill, since we agree on most of the points you discussed. But, it's all good, I haven't done the forum discussion thing in 4eva, so it opens the mind so to say. I'm outtie, got sketching to do. Peace.
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Post by rach83 on Mar 21, 2009 14:59:34 GMT -5
talk about beating a dead horse
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Post by mistresslegato on Mar 22, 2009 13:21:00 GMT -5
It got serious in here so fast *sweatdrop*
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seraph
hanger-on
Working away...
Posts: 41
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Post by seraph on Mar 22, 2009 16:06:27 GMT -5
Didn't think the discussion was anything more than that- a discussion.
People have differences of opinion. It's not always filled with drama. *shrug*
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Post by juggertha on Mar 23, 2009 3:15:04 GMT -5
Didn't think the discussion was anything more than that- a discussion. Yup, I viewed it the same way - especially between me and you.
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Post by mistresslegato on Mar 23, 2009 18:25:04 GMT -5
Well it seems like at least one person took things incredibly personal. That seems like more than a discussion to me.
It appears to be a rather heated debate!
I still stick to my guns that it's up to the artist whether or not they want to work for free. I do think that people who do too much free art make it seem like EVERYONE should just give it away. I didn't pay $50,000 to go to school for Graphic Design for free, why would I give away the 25 years of drawing practice away?
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Post by road2damascus on Mar 24, 2009 17:59:42 GMT -5
yeesh, it's hot in here.
i was hoping that i could just drop by and read what folks had to say but i couldn't resist dropping my 2 cents.
to me, there are a few layers to this issue.
i think the first question one must ask themselves is, "would you do this for free?" in other words, do you love this so much that you would go into clinical depression if you did not? not to name-drop, (don't worry, i'm kicking my own ass now) but that's actually the first question that mark brooks asked me when i first met him at a convention. i think once you find that answer, issues like this will find the answers for themselves.
not to attack anyone but this is what it is. if we're referring to commercial art, we're required to place some sort of monetary value on our service/product. if someone doesn't see that value, then "oh well." now it's true someone will do what they ask for free or less than what you ask, but they're not getting your work. if someone feels there is no monetary value to what they did, then there is none.
really, at the end of the day, someone's gonna ask you to do something for free. say no or yes. it's really is as simple as that. don't get me wrong, i'm not saying it's ok for vultures to do as they please but i try to concern myself with things that i can change.
lastly, i think that the internet has pretty much eliminated this issue. let's face it. with the number of online networks out there (myspace, facebook, da, etc), if you can not get exposure, that's your own fault. if someone likes what you got, then you got it.
word.
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