Art for free

[juggertha]

One of my pet peeves... someone who expects you to do art for free.

[seraph]

I'd agree... to an extent.

Ignorance of what is involved in penciling/coloring/etc is pretty damn annoying. I've run into many people looking for artists because they have the 'next best book!' idea they want to pitch. They're looking for someone to do a small teaser for them or whatnot... but they demand over the top stuff on deadlines ('I want ten pages by next week!') or such.

That stuff is annoying, and people just don't understand. But, you can get over it and just ignore them.

What fries my noodle is when someone wants to have you do an entire graphic novel of 100+ pages and says- 'We need it done by may and I'll split whatever we make with you.'

Uhm. No, thanks.

People who expect you to bust your ass like a full time gig for no pay.. THOSE people piss me off. Other people are mostly uninformed of how much work it all takes.

[juggertha]

I always try to judge it like this...

Would they do the same for me? If they are an accountant, would they work and do my taxes for free? Would they install flooring in my house for free? If the answer is yes, then chances are we are close and I'd love to help them out.

If the answer is no... then that'd be my answer.

I've done lots of work for free... even for a number of charities - but I dislike being asked for it - especially when I know someone is not considering how much work that goes into it.

Not only does the average piece take10 hours to do... but there are hours of training invested behind that.

[mistresslegato]

Ugh. I hate getting PMs on deviantart that say "Can you draw my character like this or that?" Ummm . . . not unless you pay like everyone else does!

I make things for my friends all of the time, but nobody should expect us to work for free.

I do occassionally donate work as prizes for contests, but it's voluntary and when I have time!

[Archerion]

I once say a Draw me "Contest" Where the person wanted everyone to draw her and the best would would be "Highlighted in her journal . Talk about getting a few dozen commissioned peaces for free.

I will not work for free, and my mom or my wife as donated my drawing time to ppl , that pisses me off too.

[beng]

Along those same lines, this an open letter to people who want to write comics:


Dear internet,

Do you love comics so much that you want a job making them?
Here's a simple test to find out if you are really a writer, or if you're just a comics fan, with a warped perception about what comic writing is:

1) Do you love to write? Not do you think you would love to write if you were writing comics, do you presently love writing?

2) Have you ever written anything before. Maybe something that's not comics? Like a short story, a stageplay, or a novel.

3) Did you know that writing comics is hard? Or did you decide you wanted to be a writer because you can't draw? I know you may believe the assumption that writing is easier than drawing. It's not.


If you answered "No" to any of the above questions you should consider an alternate path to your career in comics.
Learn to draw. Or letter. Or color. Do not think that just because you can string sentences together that more or less tell a story, that you can write.
Despite the fact that if you actually HAVE told a story from start to finish before you decide that you are a writer, you probably have a leg up on the rest of the internet, you still probably suck.

And to anyone who decides to be a writer know this, there are people like me out there that will hold you to as rigid a screening process as you hold for them.
For all the pages you need to see of their previous work, we will ask for completed scripts. For every page of layouts and character designs you demand, we will ask for rough drafts and story maps.

Just because we are drawing your ideas, doesn't mean you are the boss. Especially since you don't even realize what a cliche your idea is.

Get over yourself. You are not Brian Michael Bendis. You are a schmuck on the internet that thinks banging out something on your word processor in 20 mins makes you special.

[juggertha]

So.. some of the reasons people give to try to get you to work for free...



-It'll beef up your portfolio
-It'll get you exposure
-It'll give you practice
-It'll teach you to work with deadlines


any others?

[seraph]

'You'll get paid when I do?'

Heard that one more times then I care to admit.

[rach83]

Mar 18, 2009 17:18:20 GMT -5 juggertha said:

So.. some of the reasons people give to try to get you to work for free...



-It'll beef up your portfolio
-It'll get you exposure
-It'll give you practice
-It'll teach you to work with deadlines


any others?

ya know i was thinking about doing that web comic that is posted in the help wanted boards. but now, if i am going to put in all of my time and resources and after hearing everyone else..... geez i am naive.

[nayias]

Okay, someone please let me know if I'm just being naive, but at the last convention I had a table at, I didn't charge for pencil sketches or inked sketches, just colored pieces, since I color digitally. I did so with the intent of: a) exposure, and b) I figured most con goers wouln't pay for an unknown's sketches.

Thoughts?

[juggertha]

Mar 18, 2009 21:16:19 GMT -5 rach83 said:

Mar 18, 2009 17:18:20 GMT -5 juggertha said:

So.. some of the reasons people give to try to get you to work for free...



-It'll beef up your portfolio
-It'll get you exposure
-It'll give you practice
-It'll teach you to work with deadlines


any others?

ya know i was thinking about doing that web comic that is posted in the help wanted boards. but now, if i am going to put in all of my time and resources and after hearing everyone else..... geez i am naive.

Personally, I think every job should be a paying job. If it's not, it's called volunteering.

[seraph]

"Every Job should be a paying job."

I agree and disagree.

We're not all in the same boat as professional artists that do the gig for a living. Many of us are trying to get to that point. On that road, you're obviously going to have to make sacrifices of your time and effort.

However, I DO believe that people who absolutely refuse to pay ANYTHING for long projects (not even materials costs) and the such can be trying to rip you off. Ultimately, its up to each person to judge the sincerity or worth of a project before taking it on.

Now, I'm not talking about commission drawings of characters or quick things for friends or people you know... I'm talking about people who want you to work on a book, or who want an artist to maybe whip up a short for a book for convention time.

Currently, I'm working on a 10 page short for a guy who wants to take it and hand it out at a convention this summer. I'm doing it for free. Why? Because I know that no one in the business knows me from adam, and since this guy is sincere in his work and desire to get this idea of his heard of, I know he'll be taking it to editors or artists or writers and such. I get the exposure, he does the legwork. Yeah, it's taking a good chunk of my freetime after my job, but I think it might be worth it. The guy I'm working with isn't a jerk, and is open to ideas/suggestions about the art side of the story, and is a level-headed guy.

Would I do this all the time for no pay? No. I wouldn't. In this case I think the pros outweigh the cons of doing it for free.

In terms of the webcomic- I think that it would be an interesting opportunity. I would do the work on the side, depending on deadlines and such. At the beginning stages, exposure and networking are critical.

I'm not advocating whoring yourself out to everyone with a word processor and an idea, or doing thirty character commissions with backgrounds all for free- that'd just be stupid. But, basically, it's up to you to decide what's worth it or not.

Now, if you're an established pro doing a job for free isn't volunteering, it's charity- or just being a nice guy.

But, we all have to start somewhere, and on occasion, that might mean doing a piece or two for free.

Now.. people who DEMAND art for free, or INSIST that it'll help your portfolio or give you practice... those people earn my everlasting ire.

[juggertha]

I look at art as I look at any other trade and skill - if you're being trained, it's about the schooling.

If you're working, then it's about making money (and furthering your career).

Can you imagine asking someone to tile your kitchen to 'gain experience'? Asking a guy to design your house so that he could 'practice'? Asking a doctor to help you so that he can 'learn the ropes'?

It's a bunch of BS that is usually used to get free work.

Seraph, if you want to work for free because you think it'll further your career - go to it man. I honestly wish you all the best. I can see how it might work, and am sure that it has helped some people in the past.

That being said, I think that most of the requests for free art are simply that - requests for free art.

[seraph]

I can't say I agree 100% with you.

Value of art is subjective. Mind you, as a whole, the comic industry has standard pay in place for penciling, coloring, etc. There has to be a common scale with comparable rates, otherwise the whole system would be financially out of whack.

For example, one person might buy a painting for $2,000, while someone else would only be willing to pay $2 for it. Art has no criteria for price. It's completely subjective. People pay what they think it is worth. In this type of contracted work, however, there are standards for artists on a per page basis- which is where comic artists get it better than other 'traditional' artists.

However, for someone just 'getting into the ring,' being a jerk about some opportunities that are simply that- opportunities to work with a script you didn't write, to learn how to work with a writer... well, in some cases, people pay to be able to do that. They pay tuition for it.

I think you're misconstruing a bit of what I'm saying here. With ANY profession you have to make sacrifices when you start out. You don't make the big cash out of the door. Likewise, a company isn't going to call up an individual without proven talent (and hasn't proven the ability to work on a tight deadline, with a creative team, etc) and offer tons of cash off the bat. If I could work at my own pace the entire time I was employed, and not have creative snags with people, and be able to completely scrap a project and restart in a totally different way everytime I felt like it- I would have no idea what it's like working with others. That requires experience.

And, on that- sometimes people/companies/writers won't pay much for someone without proven experience.

Everyone has to start somewhere. Which is why I stated what I did- it's up to each individual artist to weigh the pros and cons themselves. Do I advocate working for free as a rule? No, no I don't. Do I think that sometimes you have to make sacrifices for your work? Yes, I do. I wholeheartedly believe that.

AS for "Can you imagine asking someone to tile your kitchen to 'gain experience'? Asking a guy to design your house so that he could 'practice'? Asking a doctor to help you so that he can 'learn the ropes'?" - I understand, and have used this very argument myself against people who are willing to pay, oh, say $100 for 90 pages of art. It's kind of laughable when they give a two month deadline. At that point it's a fulltime job they're trying to get you to do... and for a hundred bucks for ninety pages? Right.

However, what I was saying wasn't aimed at anyone who professionally does art- you know, the kind of people who do art and NOTHING else. It's their main source of income. people who are just getting started or who just dabble now and again? Asking for professional rates for less than a professional job is equally as laughable as asking a professional to work for free. Imagine, the new penciler who just read his first anatomy book and has no grasp on even one point perspective asking for $90 per penciled page.

If I knew someone who knew how to lay tile, but did it as a side thing, yeah, I'd ask if they'd come by and help tile my bathroom. I'd buy lunch and a case and that'd be that. I do the same with friends who work on cars, just as they do the same for me when they want a few doodles on bristol.

In essence? Always do your art for free? Bad policy.

Ask for professional rates when you have NO credits to your name? Also bad policy.

Everyone starts somewhere, and it doesn't look good demanding boatloads of money when you have no professional credits to back up your salary requirements.

Commissions requests are a different animal all together. In this I'm referring to doing things like graphic novels for a writer looking to pitch a book, or an experimental, oh, webcomic for instance. Take each for what they are and think before either jumping to offer work for free or demanding X amount of dinero.

[juggertha]

Value of art is subjective. Mind you, as a whole, the comic industry has standard pay in place for penciling, coloring, etc. There has to be a common scale with comparable rates, otherwise the whole system would be financially out of whack.

The value of everything is subjective... and bares what the market will allow. What's your point?

However, for someone just 'getting into the ring,' being a jerk about some opportunities that are simply that- opportunities to work with a script you didn't write, to learn how to work with a writer... well, in some cases, people pay to be able to do that. They pay tuition for it.

Asking to be paid for work is 'being a jerk'

I think you're misconstruing a bit of what I'm saying here. With ANY profession you have to make sacrifices when you start out. You don't make the big cash out of the door. Likewise, a company isn't going to call up an individual without proven talent (and hasn't proven the ability to work on a tight deadline, with a creative team, etc) and offer tons of cash off the bat. If I could work at my own pace the entire time I was employed, and not have creative snags with people, and be able to completely scrap a project and restart in a totally different way everytime I felt like it- I would have no idea what it's like working with others. That requires experience.

You're setting up a strawman here. Never once did i talk about 'big money'. I simply said paid. I never said that a new person should or would demand top dollar - so there's not reason for you to try to defeat that argument.

You continue to go on about 'professional rates' and companies 'not paying much', but that is not an issue. The issue is people not paying at all (please read the title of this thread).

Please don't bother with strawmen, they add nothing to the discussion.

If I knew someone who knew how to lay tile, but did it as a side thing, yeah, I'd ask if they'd come by and help tile my bathroom. I'd buy lunch and a case and that'd be that. I do the same with friends who work on cars, just as they do the same for me when they want a few doodles on bristol.

If you scroll up, you'll see that I said something very similar. However, that is usually not the case when it comes to these types of requests. Very few of them come from your buddy (that would help you in return), but instead come fro some anonymous poster on the 'net that has 'an amazing opportunity for you!'

Again, it boils down to how you value your time, effort, and skill. If you think that it is worth nothing, that is how much you'll be paid.

Work = pay.

It's really that simple.